2005-1: Provider Independent IPv6 Assignments for End-sites

Discussion messages

3

First activity

Apr 27, 2006

Last activity

Apr 28, 2006

First explicit stance

Oppose

Latest explicit stance

Oppose

Stance changes

0

Viewpoint consistency

No validated consistency assessment

Other policies

2

First explicit stance: Oppose → Latest explicit stance: Oppose · Stance changes: 0

1. Apr 27, 2006 · Oppose

   [ppml] Policy Proposal 2005-1: Provider-independent IPv6

   No, you are completely missing the point. Establishing a policy that … defines "provider independent space" sets a precedent that, for all … practical purposes, will not be revokable. Once early adopters are … granted "PI space", the genie will be surely and truly out of the bottle; … those recipients of a valuable commodity will not be easily persuaded to … give it up nor will their service providers cut-off paying customers by … ceasing to route "de-authorized" prefixes. Those assignhments will be … permanent, just as all SRI-NIC-era assignments ("the swamp space") are … still filling the IPv4 routing table more than 10 years after they were … last granted. Future applicants will rightly cry "foul" when told that … they aren't going to be given the same "PI space" that early adopters … were given. … Nonsense. Once something is given it is almost impossible to get it back. … And creating a two-tiered society of "early adopters with PI space" vs. … "late adopters who get something less valuable" is going to run into all … sorts of issues. … And the hundreds of thousands of routes that are of concern to those who … think about "big Internet" scaling problems are what we *will* see if a … "PI space" policy is adopted. Not by years end but most certainly if ipv6 … is widely adopted in the absence of a scalable multihoming solution (and … no, the existing ipv6 strict topology-based addressing plan doesn't cut … it, either; the protocol MUST be fixed to replace the "address" with a … topology-based locator and a endpoint id that does not need to ever be … renumbered once assigned before ipv6 can be ubiqitously deployed). … Ooh, the "restraint of trade boogieman". … I would be rather more concerned over lawsuits regarding unfair and … inconsistant business practices should an RIR establish the precedent of … granting a valuable asset ("PI space") to early adopters and then refusing … to offer equal treatment to later adopters. Or of tring to revoke the use … of an existing "PI space" allocation that is in use for critical business … Some organizations were good enough to transition off of pre-RIR IPv4 … assignments (anybody remember net 36.0.0.0) because of a sense of community … and of doing good for the collective; that sense of community has long since … vanished from the commercial Internet, so past behavior is most certainly … not a good indicator of future behavior. … Fix the routing and addressing architecture *NOW*; don't try to kludge … around it and hope that it is possible to retrofit a fix later.

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2. Apr 27, 2006 · Oppose

   [ppml] Policy Proposal 2005-1: Provider-independent IPv6

   Once again, I will submit myself to the definition of insanity by trying … again (and no doubt failing) to explain a little bit about Internet scaling. … In fairness, it is difficult to comprehend the issues and complexities of … large network scaling until one has worked first hand in a large network … This "analysis" completely misses the point. IMHO, it is also simply wrong. … Growth trends clearly show that the fraction of Internet sites which are multi … homed and/or which engage in traffic engineering via more-specifics is on the … rise. Expect this trend to accelerate as the Internet becomes more mission- … critical for businesses of all sizes. A substantial fraction (20%? 50%? … more?) of the number of worldwide businesses would be a good guess at the … eventual number of multihomed sites. How many businesses today don't have … mission-critical phone service? There is good reason to believe that Internet … access will be just as important in the future, particularly if the vision … of the "converged network" comes to pass (not that I'm drinking that … kool-aide... but that is a separate conversation). Multi-homing will drive … the creation of enormous global routing state if the expedient "provider … independant space" approach is taken in favor of the more difficult task … of fixing the architecture (and no, I do not believe that shim6 will be … a viable alternative). Believe it or not, consumer Internet usage also … continues to grow at a super-linear rate, thanks to the emergence of … applications which appeal to mainstream users (for example, peer-to-peer … file sharing). As traditional telephony and other services are moved to … the packet network, this trend will accelerate. … As I probably mentioned in an earlier message, exponential and polynomial … growth curves often don't look very exciting during the shallow, early stage … of growth, when small numbers mask what will become an impressive trend. … This statement belies a fundamental lack of understanding of the IETF and … the history of operator participation over the past 10 to 15 years. During … that period, the IETF has been almost completely devoid of operational focus, … partly due to low operator participation (see below for why some operators … feel alienated) and partly due to active bias against "evil greedy bastard" … ISPs. The output of the IETF, most notably in ipv6's lack of a scalable … routing and addressing architecture, reflects this. In that particular case, … those with operational experience were greeted with outright hostility; as … the political consensus-building process converged on ipv6-nee-SIP, some … operators did speak up and say "this isn't going to work... you are ignoring … the fundamental scaling problems in routing and addressing". They were told … "too bad" and actively discouraged from participating. Meanwhile the ipv6 … brain trust said, to paraphrase a "talking Barbie" doll of the 1970s, that … "math [solving that problem] is hard, let's go shopping [design packet … headers] instead". … This statement couldn't be more wrong. In fact, I had to read it several … times to make sure that I had parsed it correctly. … I would be very interested in understanding your operational experience, … particularly as it pertains to large ISP networks. In my experience in … working for regional, then national, then international ISP networks from … 1988 until 2001, it was abundantly clear that equipment vendors viewed "that … Internet stuff" as a small, sometimes-profitable but low margin sidelight … to enterprise networking. This was true when token ring source-route bridging … (remember that?) and IBM terminal emulation were implemented more quickly and … more correctly than sorely needed ISP features like OSPF, IS-IS, or BGP. It … remains true today. … This "conspiracy of the vendors and the big ISPs" has more in common with … analysis of the Zapruder tape and theories about the grassy knoll than it … does with business reality. It really is time to give it a rest already.

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3. Apr 28, 2006 · Unknown

   [ppml] Policy Proposal 2005-1: Provider-independent IPv6

   Validated evidence is unavailable.

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Total policy messages: 5